Interview :

Ambassador Yves Brodeur: Multicultural, multilateral

by Bernard KENNEDY

In 1985, Canadian diplomat Yves Brodeur left Turkey after completing a tour of duty as second secretary at his country’s embassy in Ankara. Twenty years later, after serving in many other posts and gaining experience in organisations such as the OECD and NATO, he returned as ambassador. As he expected, matters related to trade and investment, regional problems and bilateral ties - including the Armenian issue - were to keep him fully occupied. Ambassador Brodeur, a former architect, has nevertheless found time to reacquaint himself with a much-changed city and its much-changed environs. Our conversation with the ambassador turned to all of this – as well as to the changing nature of Canadian society. But we began by focusing on Canada’s foreign policy...

Q  As a member of the Western alliance, how different can Canada’s foreign policy be from that of the US, which is also its closest neighbour and largest trading partner?

A  Canada and the US share many common preoccupations, but at the same time we also have a distinctive approach. In 2003, for example, the Canadian policy regarding Iraq was very different from the policy of the US. We do believe in investing and helping Iraq to rebuild its infrastructure as a country and we have invested a lot of money in that. However, the issue for us at the time was whether to take part in the operation in Iraq or not, and the government at the time decided not to.

We are involved in Afghanistan. We are involved in the war against terrorism, which I think is a global preoccupation for all nations of this planet. But we are ardent multilateralists. The UN has been an important forum for Canada to express ourselves and to put forward our values, and we are very attached to it. Canada has just been elected a member of the newly-created Human Rights Council, which was actually an idea promoted by Canada.

Democracy or democratization – whichever term you prefer to use –is very important for us. We prefer the word “governance”, I guess, which is helping nations to build the structures that they need to have functioning democracies.

Q  What about Iran?

A  We believe that Iran has to conform to the demands of the IAEA. They are important to the UN requirements. We are quite clear on that. Iran has to respond to the UN and we have made that clear to the Iranian authorities. So from that point of view I think we are in the same group as many other countries – not only the United States but the vast majority of world nations.

Q  Is Canada a nuclear power?

A  No. Canada possesses no nuclear weapons and none can be stationed on Canadian territory. We have decided that we don’t want to contribute to the general proliferation of nuclear weapons. That decision was taken back in the early 1970s at a time when Canada was sandwiched between two nuclear superpowers, the Soviet Union and the US.

Q  Will the recent change of government result in changes in Canada’s foreign policy?

A  Naturally, it’s the prerogative of the prime minister and the government to reconsider the existing policies. Having said that, I think Canada is a country where there is a quite fundamental consensus. Policy reviews are conducted in consultation with many actors, including various political parties. The emphasis may vary from government to government but the fundamentals are likely to remain the same.

Q  So what are those fundamentals?

A  The latest foreign policy review led to the publication last year of a new Foreign Policy Statement. The priorities included democracy or governance, promotion, development and security – meaning the security of Canadians and security abroad as well. Those pillars of foreign policy remain pretty constant over time.

Q  Does the emphasis on democracy and governance stem from altruism on the part of the Canadian people or is it related to Canada’s interests?

A  We have to define the word “interests”. I think there is a vision in Canada - especially perhaps now - that helping existing nations to develop and build solid democratic institutions, will bring more security and more prosperity, and will consequently reduce the global threat. Perhaps there’s a bit of altruism because Canada is a country of immigrants intensely linked to the rest of the planet through its various communities, keenly aware of the situation in many parts of the globe and where people feel that they need to help. But at the same time it is a preoccupation that arises from the need to build a better world which in the end will benefit Canadians as much as developing countries.

Q  You have already mentioned the UN. What is Canada’s stance on the make-up of the Security Council?

A  We believe that the Security Council has to make room for the opinions of nations which are more and more important players in world affairs. That does not necessarily mean creating more permanent seats. The mechanics of it has to be looked at. We welcome, for instance, the fact that Turkey has expressed interest in being elected for one of the non-permanent seats. This is a very good example of a nation whose regional importance is growing, and which has a lot of clout and experience in regional issues, especially in this part of the world. It should have an opportunity to play a role in such an important institution as the UN Security Council and we support that.

Q  How much do Canadians know about Turkey? And what is Turkey’s importance to Canada?

A  I would say the level of knowledge among Canadians about Turkey is not what it could be. For the average Canadian, Turkey is a quite far away. Canadians in general are not very knowledgeable about Turkey’s history, and it’s a region of the world where they don’t travel a lot. As for the importance of Turkey to Canada, we value Turkey as a very important ally. We have had official relations since 1947. We work with Turkey in various multinational frameworks and we cooperate on many issues. For a country like Canada which is not very close to this region, Turkey is an entry point and a very valuable contact point. I think this country is quickly becoming, as we say in French, ‘incontournable’ for all of us that want to get a better sense of what’s going on in this part of the world.

Canada takes global security issues quite seriously. Turkey has always been and still is a front-line state - it was in the time of the Soviet Union and it is now because of what is happening in Iraq, the Middle East situation, and the situation with Iran. How could you not value highly your political cooperation with a country like Turkey? Canada has a lot to learn from Turkey on the political front. We have also invested an effort in the countries of the Caucasus - and Central Asia as well - and cooperating with countries like Turkey makes enormous sense.

Q  What about the economic and business aspect?

A  We see a lot of potential for the development of even closer cooperation and more trade. I think two-way trade will be a little over US$1bn this year. We import more from Turkey than Turkey imports from Canada. However, there is much more potential both for Canadian companies in Turkey and for Turkish companies in Canada. We are also the 14^th largest investor in Turkey, but again the amount is not huge. It can only get better, and I am certainly going to do everything I can to bring about an improvement

In general the Canadian companies doing business in Turkey have been doing business here for decades. They have been involved in big infrastructure projects, in subways, in telecommunications networks, in mining… For us I think the challenge now is to encourage fresh investors. Already, Canadian investors are starting to see Turkey as a very attractive market. For example, CanWest, which is a huge communications company in Canada, has become quite interested in Turkey. I think the EU dynamic is helping because it is creating a business environment comparable to that in Europe. The Turkish economy is also becoming more transparent and predictable.

Q  Does the Embassy handle a lot of immigration applications?

A  No, we don’t have many immigrants from Turkey. A lot of Turkish investors are interested in establishing their business in Canada but not necessarily in terms of becoming resident. What I am working on is to try to attract more Turkish students to Canada. Canada can certainly offer a very competitive environment for higher education. Last year, we had a 35% increase in the number of student visa applications, although we started from very low levels.

Q  Have you been aware of the Armenian issue acting as a drag on Turkish-Canadian relations?

A  Yes I have. It’s been a sensitive issue between Canada and Turkey since the Parliament of Canada adopted a motion in 2004. Unfortunately, it’s not something that we can just ignore. I know it’s a very important issue for Turkey and I understand Turkey’s sensitivities. I think we have a solid bilateral relationship and I think that will help us during the difficult discussions which we are going through now. I am reasonably confident that we will be able to find a way out and renew cooperation to the benefit of both sides.

Q  What are the concrete effects on relations?

A  Well it is difficult to measure. Business people continue to do business together. We still maintain close relations on defence and security and that sort of thing. But I think it’s fair to say that we are going through a period of slow-down. It’s obvious when you speak to Turkish colleagues: they make you clearly understand that this is an unfortunate development for them and that they are disappointed. They are not necessarily as eager as they were about working together. The most concrete signal was the recall of Turkey’s ambassador to Ottawa, Aydemir Erman, for consultations.

Q  Did Prime Minister Stephen Harper say anything on April 24 that was different from what has been said before?

A  The Prime Minister basically reminded Canadians of the terms of the motion adopted in 2004. He was clear about that, saying: Our position as a party has not changed.

Q  What would you like people to think of when they think of Canada?

A  Canada is very much a multicultural society. I think this is quite important because in some countries ethnically based nationalism is making a big come-back. We are admitting some 350,000 immigrants to Canada each year. We still have an active immigration policy and that gives Canada a very distinctive character. I think Canadians are defined by values rather than by a notion of identity based on, say, ethnic origins or language. People ask about the language divide between English and French, but Chinese is spoken widely too. This experience can perhaps help nations to understand better how multicultural nations work and function. I am not saying we have found a magic solution or that we fully understand multiculturalism but we have been practising it for long enough to know that there are some good elements that can be looked at and perhaps adapted in other parts of the world.

Q  There’s a view that multiculturalism actually stands in the way of integration…

A  Somehow we seem to have struck the right balance. Multiculturalism seems to allow people to maintain their culture at the same time as adopting Canadian values. I think this has something to do with how the Canadian identity is defined. It’s not the flag, not a language, not the territory… Perhaps it’s more about tolerance and open-ness. And really we don’t have a choice about those values in a society where we have so many people from so many different backgrounds; otherwise it simply wouldn’t work.

I think another aspect of Canada worth studying is that we seem to have been able to combine a European-style social tradition, in which the state has a lot of responsibility when it comes to health and education, with a vibrant, decentralized, open liberal economy. When I was at the OECD fifteen years ago, a lot of people thought the two concepts didn’t go together, but we seem to have come up with a hybrid system that brings prosperity while ensuring that Canadians have protection and access to good social services and education, among other things.

Q  Coming back to Turkey, I believe this is the second time you have lived in Ankara…

A  Actually it’s the third time. My first diplomatic assignment was in 1983-1985. But I first came in 1977 as a part of a student exchange programme. I shared my time between Mimar Sinan University in Istanbul and METU in Ankara. My main interest was in Ottoman architecture. One of the projects I worked on was the restoration of some of the old houses in Safranbolu… Last week I went back to Safranbolu for the first time in 23 years. Wow! What a spectacular change!

Q  What other changes have you noticed?

A  In the 1980s, Ankara had an almost rural quality to it. There was a vineyard where the Sheraton Hotel is now, and the big mosque at Kocatepe didn’t exist: it was still a market area where we had to go to do our weekend shopping. The size of the population and quality of the city is quite different now. The city is livelier, busier and greener, with a lot more parks and trees, but it’s also a noisier city with lots of cars. At times it’s a little chaotic. It reminds me a bit of a government-university city like Ottawa, or Bonn. We are happy to be here.

Q  How has diplomatic life changed?

A  Now we have 55 people working at our embassy. In those days we had only 15. We had no immigration section. We had a visa section but it was mostly to process visitors’ visas; we had very few students coming to Canada. Our trade operation was very, very small.

Life in 2006 is extremely busy. I don’t think a day passes without a very high level delegation coming to town led by a head of state or government or a minister. Many of the diplomats here are people who have had very senior posts in their foreign ministries. I think this is a sign of Turkey’s importance. At the same time, Ankara is a place where interaction is rather easy. It’s easy to get access to your colleagues, to Foreign Ministry officials and to other departments. I think people are eager to develop a good relationship. They do everything they can to make your life easier.

Q  Was it your choice to come back to Ankara?

A  I think some diplomats come here under the impression that they will have a quiet time. I volunteered to come here knowing the country to some extent and with the intention of working very hard. I also came back to meet up with friends whom we met 25 years ago and have maintained close contact with. It’s a privilege to be able to follow the evolution of a country like Turkey over a period of 30 years, and it’s always fascinating to go back to places you have visited before. My wife and I have extremely good memories of life in Turkey. This summer our children will be coming to see us. My son, who was with us in the 1980s, is extremely curious to see again the city where he lived when he was very very young. 

Q  Do you ever regret becoming a diplomat instead of remaining an architect?

A  Life is an evolutionary process – not a series of separate segments. In the new world we live in, you often run into people with two or three occupations. I find that stimulating. I think life would be boring if you didn’t have to learn something different all the time. It keeps you healthy; it keeps you young. One of the good things about being a diplomat is that your life changes every three or four years: you’re told to do something quite different, involving different issues, with different people, in a different environment and a different culture. So you find yourself in a situation where you have to sit down and learn again. Architecture was great. As a problem-solving methodology, what you learn as an architect is applicable afterwards to other walks of life. But I have no regrets about changing my profession. At the same time, I maintain an interest in architecture – in Turkey as well. Architecture tells you a lot about the people, the culture of where you are. Moreover, my son is an architect in Canada so I keep in touch with the profession in that way too. Maybe he will become a diplomat or something else one day! Life is full of surprises.

( DIPLOMAT  -  June 2006 -  Ankara )